Max Creek is 40 years old, and for a rock band - especially one that doesn’t take the slow route cross-country few times a year - that’s fucking old. They are also very, very good. Creek is a big, loud, dynamically exploratory American rock band. Three guys up front (Keys>Lead Guitar>Bass going from stage right to left), two in the back, and everybody playing at once and as one. With so many vital, wizened voices banging around in the mix, keeping things moving forward while maintaining the all- important element of surprise is of supreme importance to whomever mans the kits. One bad habit, one wrong-hearted tendency and the whole thing goes spinning out of phase.
One skinsman over-playing in a two-drummer attack sounds like 200 single drummers fucking up badly. Once the beat drags - with two kit players grasping for the “one”, and so much other noise happening - it’s very hard to rescue things without a complete shutdown. Creek is on a short list of bands that regularly deploy two drummers. In that regard, they’ve been the beneficiaries of a statistical improbability bordering on the miraculous: whoever gets plugged in back there always seems to be able to make it work.
Bob Gosselin (‘71-‘85) was a big beat guy, and he kept the drum throne - solo - until a gifted young percussionist named Rob Fried drifted in and the Creek two-drum line-up was first conceived. By 1985, Gosselin was out. Replacing him was another deep-pocket masher, this one a music-school chap with a vast array of styles at his command, and a MAJOR force-of-nature X-factor. Greg Deguglielmo - With Fried still there comping and parrying the whole time - guided the band through a career’s worth of studio records and a couple of live releases. By 1991 Deguglielmo pulled back his commitment to the band to pursue other musical avenues, and was ceded by a guy named Greg Vasso. Mr. Vasso - recruited over to Max Creek from first-wave, neo-hippie jammers Jiggle the Handle - brought another (surprise!) gifted musical presence (if not a slightly softer touch than the elemental Deguglielmo) and the band flourished under his beat-making. By 1996, Scott Allshouse - all precision, technique, and cool remove - had taken over the lion’s share of performance drumming from Vasso. As the 2000 decade wore on, however, Vasso quietly melted back into the fold, this time playing a brilliant number two to Allshouse’s omnipotent one. The first decade of 2000’s saw Vasso, Degugs, Allshouse, and Fried (until his untimely exit form the planet in ‘06) as moving, interchangeable parts in an unplanned, usually unannounced rotation. The arrangement’s yielded an enthusiast’s dream of wildly unpredictable, deeply psychedelic performances, with the empathy between the old masters evolving and flourishing under the unique rhythmic questions posed by four profoundly different, uniformly expert drummers.
Now - inevitably - another drumming sea-change is declaring itself: Allshouse and Vasso are still showing up, but they’re also raising kids and working. With Deguglielmo living and working in California, Max Creek needed another man to maintain their incomparably strong presence in NE. Enter Bill Carbone.
DSL caught up to Carbone a few days ago for what will - hopefully - be the first of many such discussions. We found him knowledgeable and quick, but above all humble, respectful, and appreciative of the opportunity with the awesome and important New England rock institution of Max Creek. Thanks to Bill for making this thing happen for us and quick.
DSL: ok. First let's do this: How did you decide you to wanted to drum. First I mean, when you were young. Why are you drumming?
BC: I was born that way, or close to it I think. My mom always told me that from when I was old enough to pick Christmas ornaments I'd pick drummer boys. Although I remember wanting to play guitar in 3rd grade and them not teaching it, so I waited till 4th and got my practice pad and started in band.
As for why, that's a harder question. I mean, I've always loved it and I made it my identity from an early age, probably like 6th grade on. I just decided "This is what I'm going to do." but the funny thing is I don't think I was very good, nor did I really practice much, I just played all the time. I don't think I learned how to actually get better until I was like 18, and then I started really working hard on stuff. But even then, I don't know, I feel like I really just started hitting in the last few years, but even now I still feel like I suck a lot of the time!
DSL: Fourth grade! Band in fourth grade, or still just lessons?
BC: Band. Song number one: Hot Cross Buns, on a practice pad. It was epic.
DSL: one a penny two a penny?
BC: Hot cross buns. You've done it. Ha, lol. You're a drummer too, right?
DSL: Yeah, I think. I took lessons with a guy named Frank Defusco in RI. Started at four. He used that tune to teach syncopation.
BC: Another great Italian drummer. There are many of us.
DSL: Heh. Practice pad play. Haven't done that in a while. So you say you "learned how to get better." Talk about that for a bit. How did you learn? Ears? Observation? Practice...
BC: It happened in phases really. First, on a strictly technical level I started lessons with Bob Gullotti in Boston. He basically taught me how to practice. He has a regimen thing, it's kind of a variation on the Alan Dawson method, where you work 6different things each week, and you divide your practice sessions equally for those things. That way you sort of attack each angle.I also studied with Bob Moses, who was a serious dickhead but did teach me an awful lot about musicality. His whole thing was anti-technique, to constantly think about melody. And as much as he pissed me off--he was really pretty cold to me and actually discouraged me from doing things that were importatnt to me in very immature ways for a teacher--that stuff rubbed off for sure. I definitely think about melody all the time.
But after that I've been really into musicality, like getting out of books and exercises and into learning as much as possible by ear. And groove. Just trying to soak up Idris Muhammad and Bernard Purdie and shut up and play a groove so that everyone can dance and listen to the vocals and guitar which is really what they want to hear anyway. And recently I've been back into technique though because sometimes I feel like I'm just not cutting it there. Great ideas, not all cleanly executed! Plus I've been listening to Chris Dave which will scare any drummer back to the practice room.
DSL: Melody vs. Pocket...Sort of the question of the ages for drummers and rhythm sections in general. You find yourself coming down heavier on one side or the other? Do you even seek to do that?
BC: Not really because both are awesome and they're not really mutually exclusive. Any good melody usually has a rhythmic clave built into it on some level, so there will be some way to play pocket in a way that it can almost sound like the tune even when everyone else stops. Trying to think of an example...and I can't! But it still makes sense, I think.
DSL: I have an impression that around 1968-9, most of what constituted rock drumming, was just guys appreciating Elvin Jones and trying to rope that into a rock context. Ginger Baker, Moon, Kruetzman...But then I feel like right after Led Zeppelin One, the whole thing shifted. Now Kenny Jones...Jim Gordon...Levon...even Bonham himself started prioritizing the time keeping. It might not be totally true, but it seems to be true on a big-picture level.
BC: Yeah, I can see that on some level. I think more than anything cleanliness became important. The wild abandon of Mitch Mitchell doesn't translate that well to a slick recording studio. Steve Gadd's super clean funk works better.
DSL: And at the same time Zappa's drummers were moving the opposite direction, with Chester Thompson begat Vinnie Colaiuta, and then Bozzio, and then Chad Wackerman, the total 180 degree opposite of "pocket" drummer.
BC: Well I agree and disagree! Those guys had monster pockets to the point that they could play ANYTHING and it still grooved.
DSL: That's true. But busy in the sticking.
BC: Yes, for sure. But Zappa is an enigma. And he ran a top down organization, so it's still sort of clean.
DSL: Seems that way. Everybody who ever played in that band swears the guy was like a corporation. Adrian Belew said the tours were like business trips!
BC: I'm sure. It seems like even the craziness was somewhat cultivated. But I still love it!
DSL: Ok now, backtrack a stitch: What were the first records you found yourself appreciating? Rock records? Parents records? Where was your head musically when you started and where is it now?
BC: I remember and they're funny. Weird Al Yankovic, I believe, whatever came out in 1983...he was my first concert. Then Billy Idol during the whole White Wedding thing, because his name was Billy, and then a little later Poison's first album.
DSL: Of course.
BC: And Run-DMC too (laughs).
DSL: Open Up and Say…Ahh?
BC: The one with Talk Dirty to Me on it. Is that what's it's called?
DSL: Yeah, unless I'm misremembering.
BC: Nice. I loved that album, or cassette I should say. And also the Beastie Boys first, and Van Halen 1984 for a little more classy stuff
DSL: I loved Poison back then. All those tunes. Unskinny Bop, and of course Every Rose Has Its Thorn. Classic.
BC: Then I just loved hard rock, metal and stuff like that, also Rush of course. Yes. Prog-Rock. All the shit kids in CT that play music like! (laughs)
I HATED the Dead until my freshman year of high school.
DSL: (laughs) ...I went to UConn. I know what you speak of...!
BC: When someone hipped me to improvisation and a few other things...
DSL: Yes, yes tell me about improv. What works? What doesn't? Tell me how your understanding of that kind of playing evolved. Talk about listening...
BC: Well, it kind of goes into what I was saying about learning to practice. I got really into avant-garde jazz in high school, like late Coltrane and William Parker and Charles Gayle and stuff, so I was super into "free" playing and did learn a lot about listening. But I also did the jazz thing where you learn how to play all this shit and then you just go on stage and cram it in the music all over the place and it really took me a long time to get past that. My best friend used to be my best teacher and say "you're doing math up there." Even now I have like a little bullshit alarm in my head that goes off when I play something that didn't have anything to do with what was happening.
The (Max) Creek guys are MASTER listeners. They just listen to each other all night. They don't care if the crowd isn't listening, they'll play a quiet jam OVER a talking audience, it's freaking awesome. It's like pure love when they do that. They've known each other so long and there's all that stuff that happens personally over time--I'm not saying that they don't like each other because that's not the case--but when they play together it's just trust and love and companionship. It's inspiring and I have a lot of work to do to get to their level. But I love that challenge.
DSL: Funny. Creek’s audience usually starts murmuring immediately when the guys quiet down. And sometimes John (Rider) and Scott (Murawski)start murmuring to each other. Those are great moments, because when you listen back on the tape, you can't tell at all. Like for a few minutes there, these guys were having a conversation with each other, like a speaking conversation and still just melting down.
BC: They do that all the time! It's one of the scariest moments for me as the new guy. Sometimes I'm just like "What the hell is going on?!?!" I don't know if I should start or stop...
DSL: Let’s talk about those three guys up front. What's the deal there? They are major guys who nobody knows about. There is heavy, nasty shit that goes between them up there. You find the energy sort of charged just because of the skills? Or is it comfy, easy to sort of blend in and find a place?
BC: It's comfy for me because the way they improvise is what I've always wanted to do. They're super good though, and they really want me to be me, which is so great. That's a tall order though when you consider all the history there; there are SO many people that have played those tunes! I truly believe Scott is one of the greatest guitarists ever to play jam music. It's just a fact, non-negotiable. I always thought that he was good, but now that I've played with him, hands down! And I really love John and Mark(Mercier) too. Mark has this super funky N'awlins kind of thing, and he's a total presence. So much more so than keyboard players in jam groups. He grooves so hard too, I find myself listening to him for direction a lot. And I love John too. The way he plays is the reason it's Creek. He grooves and plays totally cool lines without locking into anything that can't stop repeating.
As to why they're not better known, there are a lot of reasons people toss around for that, but I'm probably the least in the know there!
DSL: I agree there. It's strange to see a band of guys who are THAT good not playing bigger places, but on the other hand, you guys have 2500 people that will follow you to the moon, and in that there's a real success. The loop is small, but it's vital as hell. I agree on all three players. I think they're pretty much state-of-the-art at their instrument.
BC: Yeah for sure. And yes, that is one serious fan base! I hope that some younger people will catch on though. I play Toad's (Place, New Haven, CT) with Shakedown once a month and it's full of kids that would love the Creek if they just saw it.
DSL: I'm going to throw out some names, just fire back anything that comes to mind:
Neil Peart.
BC: Talented but tight.
DSL: Max Roach
BC: The greatest ever. The body in which melody, groove, tradition, experimentation and leftist politics coalesced.
DSL: Ha...excellent. Tony Williams.
BC: Power and finesse. The curse of Tony Williams. As in everyone wants to play like him but can't, so they just fuck up the music trying.
DSL: It's true. His work on (Live at the) Plug Nickel is a sort of Rosetta Stone for me. When he was like 18!
BC: Yeah, pretty untouchable. FAAAAAAAST. Hey Greg, I've gotta bolt in a few minutes, but if there's more I'd be happy to get back at it tomorrow. You can hit me with a few more names first though.
DSL: Nice. No problem. We will definitely do it again.
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